think that party. whom do you think that mp5 should be able to detect mp5 should be able to defect with such ea5e.7 and what about a by—election by default? i with such ea5e? and what about a by—election by default? i would support one of those. would you? and a week is a very long time in politics, isn't it? it is if you're monty panesar, because you're monty panesar, because you remember we were talking about him standing for the workers party. well he is now quit. what do you make to that? and i also want to ponder tonight why is the organisation on the right of politics so lacking. do you know the reason for that or not? and also today, the former immigration minister robert jenrick has outlined a 36 point plan as to how we should be dealing with immigration. you've got caps in the tens of thousands proposed. how many times have we heard that as well as separating the home office, your thoughts on that? and a story caught my eye this week about a farmer who's been accused of shooting and killing accused of shooting and killing a suspected burglar. and it's got me pondering how far should you be able to go when it comes to defending your property? all

of that to come and more. but before we get stuck in, let's cross live for tonight's latest news headlines . news headlines. >> michelle, thank you very much. and good evening to you. it's just gone 6:00 and leading the news tonight, another of rishi sunak's mp5 has defected to labour, the second in under just two weeks. natalie elphicke announced her decision just two minutes before prime minister's questions this afternoon . the questions this afternoon. the dover mp said that rishi sunak's government is chaotic and claims that labour has changed. dan poulter made the same switch less than a fortnight ago, while the conservatives also lost hundreds of councillors and the blackpool south by—election last week. speaking shortly after making that announcement to defect, mr elphicke said a labour government promises a brighter future. >> in 2019, the conservatives stood on a manifesto that was very much centre ground, but

under rishi sunak they've abandoned the centre ground and broken many election promises. meanwhile, under keir starmer , meanwhile, under keir starmer, labour have changed and i think that change is going to bring a much better future for our country and that's why i'm so keen to join the labour party and play my part in bringing that important future forward banking group tsb will close 36 branches and cut 250 jobs across the business as more customers are opting for online banking, most of the lost positions will be in the bank's fraud department. >> central operations and high street branches. about 96% of transactions now take place outside of a branch, while in—store transactions have fallen by 34% over the past four years. and just a reminder , if years. and just a reminder, if you were watching on tv there, those appear to have been the wrong pictures. planned strikes by hundreds of workers at heathrow airport have been called off today, after a new offer was made in a bid to resolve a dispute over the

outsourcing of jobs . members of outsourcing of jobs. members of the unite union were due to walk out tomorrow morning until monday. workers, including security guards and passengers assistant staff, will now be balloted on the new offer . a balloted on the new offer. a father whose teenage daughter, who took her own life after watching harmful content on social media, says a draft plan to protect children online doesn't go far enough. the media regulator ofcom says platforms must take action to stop their algorithms, recommending harmful content to children or face significant fines . but ian significant fines. but ian russell, part of bereaved families for online safety, wants to see those safety codes strengthened to make sure that the world's biggest online platforms, he says, better protect children online. and finally, some royal news before we head back to michelle. prince harry has tonight arrived at saint paul's cathedral for a service there of thanksgiving to mark the 10th anniversary of the invictus games. the duke of sussex is giving a reading there in front of representatives from

participating nations and sick and injured service personnel and injured service personnel and veterans. less than two miles away, the king has been holding a first garden party of the season at buckingham palace . the season at buckingham palace. but during harry's brief visit to the uk this week, the king's full programme means the pair won't be meeting . those are the won't be meeting. those are the latest headlines. i'll be back with another update at 7:00. in the meantime, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the code on your screen or go to gb news. com slash alerts . news. com slash alerts. >> thanks for that. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm keeping you company until 7:00 tonight. there is a lot i want to get stuck into with you guys tonight, also, one of the things that i've noticed. did you see that i've noticed. did you see that story about astrazeneca? they have announced that they're going to be withdrawing globally. their vaccine. the company says, of course, for commercial reasons. and it goes on to state how many lives they believe the vaccine has saved.

but of course, many of you might know that there is a massive class action claim going through the courts at the moment, which has seen astrazeneca finally admit that yes, in what they say are very rare cases, the vaccine canindeed are very rare cases, the vaccine can indeed cause tts, which is basically blood clots. i do just want to say, i think that the way that so many people who have been harmed by these vaccines have just been let down in this country is absolutely shameful. they have been abused, they have been ignored, they have been shamed, they have been vilified. and i just want to say that i, for one, hope that they manage to get justice, alongside me tonight to get stuck into lots of different things. i have the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani, and the political commentator and social worker joseph david. good evening to both of you. evening. i've never had you on the program whilst i've been in. >> it's a pleasure to be here. >> it's a pleasure to be here. >> you snuck in whilst i was on houday >> you snuck in whilst i was on holiday once. i seem to remember watching it back. so you're very welcome tonight, as are all of you at home to, you can get in touch with me all the usual

ways. gb views @gbnews. com is the email address or of course you can hop onto the website and go to gb news commu usa and talk to me there. or you can tweet or x me, but wherever you are, however you want to talk to me tonight, you are very, very welcome. now, did you see the news happening? just about kind of midday ish during pmqs or at the start of pmqs, we had another defection , this time another defection, this time from the tory party over to laboun from the tory party over to labour. just watch. well, in 2019, the conservatives stood on a manifesto that was very much centre ground. but under rishi sunak they've abandoned the centre ground and broken many election promises. meanwhile, under keir starmer, labour have changed and i think that change is going to bring a much better future for our country. and that's why i'm so keen to join the labour party and play my part in bringing that important future forward. okay. yeah, indeed. so that's the tory mp natalie elphicke from dover and deal. natalie elphicke from dover and deal . i've got to say, i don't deal. i've got to say, i don't actually agree with this . i

actually agree with this. i think crossing the floor in my view, because it suits you as an individual and what you perhaps want to achieve in your future is pretty damn shameful, actually, because it it's a snub to all of those people that turned out and gave you the cross in the box. and yes, i can hear you now saying, oh, michel, educate yourself. we vote for the person , not the party. well, the person, not the party. well, that's fascinating, but we put the parties on there. and of course, those people are selected to represent said parties and all of the policies that go with it. so if you ask me, my humble opinion, i would say that, any defection should trigger a by—election. and yes, i'm not biased in that view. i apply that whichever side you're moving from to. and and yes, i would involve and include people like lee anderson in that as well. what says you at home? but aaron, what do you say? >> well, just watching that clip again, i was i was a bit gutted because given the words coming out of her mouth, given what she'd done, she should be wearing some makeup, a wig and a little flower with a water pistol hidden in it because she's behaving like a clown.

this is the same mp who called sir keir starmer. sir keir softy. she said he wants open borders . this is the mp for doven >> while you're talking i'm going to play some of these tweets. i'll put some of the tweets. i'll put some of the tweets up on the screen whilst aaron's talking away, where she criticises the labour's sorry, i don't know, maybe i've ruined the shtick here. no, you have not ruined anything. keep going, and i just find it utterly ridiculous. look, you can have views one way or another. that's absolutely fine. but what? natalie elphicke here has embodied is the indisputable fact that the majority of the political class in this country believe in absolutely nothing except the next paycheque and their own hide. and i suspect she's made this choice because she's made this choice because she wants maybe a peer peer role. so she's a starmer government or maybe an ngo role. so she's a starmer government or maybe an n60 or a quango. so she she's thinking about her future. >> i do have to say so. she said apparently she's not going to run again . so the previous ppc run again. so the previous ppc from the last one, that's the person that's going to stand in that seat. and she also said that seat. and she also said that she has not been offered a

peerage, but there was talk of some kind of housing role. i think that's the latest line on it . and where are you on this? it. and where are you on this? >> well, call me a cynic, but i doubt she's converted to labour ideology. so close to a general election. this is somebody who stood in dover . election. this is somebody who stood in dover. this is a seat where migration is a big issue . where migration is a big issue. she's now joining a party which she very rightly said believes in open borders. she's let down the people of her, of her constituency. and if you stand on her ticket , if you campaign on her ticket, if you campaign with a particular party, yes, you're being elected. somebody puts a cross on your name, but they're electing you and the party. and i think something has to change. and this very much reminds me in stark contrast to the last time i think somebody acted with integrity and they left their party. they called the they called by—election and they actually won it. and this was douglas carswell all those years ago. i think it was in 2015. so it can be done and very

often the electorate will take the opportunity to , to choose the opportunity to, to choose again if they've moved with you on the issue. but it's simply immoral and dishonest to take the mandate that you received at a general election and so close to the next election leave maybe with hope of a peerage . with hope of a peerage. >> nicola said if someone defects from one party to another, then yes, there should be a by—election. >> let me just ask you this though, nicholas. do you think the time frame should bear any relevance on this? because of course, people on the other side of the argument will say, well, hold on a minute, michelle. by elections costs a lot of money. and if actually there's going to be a general election in in a matter of weeks or months, and is that just wasted money down the drain? so, nicholas, tell me your thoughts. and is anyone out there actually in this constituency ? did you vote constituency? did you vote either for or against her? and how do you feel by this defection and i think, labour they've been criticised a lot, aaron, because one of the things that natalie was saying has just been hearing there is that she's

saying she thinks that the tories are neglecting the centre ground, whereas people on the other side are saying, i've heard people say, well, hang on, natalie is quite to the right of the tories. so if the labour party are embracing her, what does that say about the labour party's direction of travel? she says the labour party are the party for the centrist now. >> well i think she's an opportunist and i think keir starmer is very happy to work with opportunists because he's also an opportunist. a nice analogy here is if zarah sultana joined the conservative party, you know, she is on the furthest right reaches of the conservative party. natalie elphicke and she's now been embraced by the opposition. the point of a two party system. and by the way, i support pr. i think we need more parties in politics is that you have clear distinctive lines between them and you have clear alternatives. i'm not happy with these people. these people stand for something profoundly different. i want rid of the status quo . and i think of the status quo. and i think this really underscores something we've talked about many times on here, the uni party, you know, we are really looking at fundamentally, as mr galloway puts it, i know he's

had a tough week. we might be talking about that in a moment, too. >> we most certainly will. >> we most certainly will. >> worry not. he has a great way with words, and one of the phrases he loves to use is, you know, two cheeks of the same backside. and i think this really highlights it's that fundamental reality. >> i've seen some horrendous imagery today, of i dread to think whose buttocks they are with pictures of keir starmer on one buttock and rishi sunak on the other. i won't be able to unsee some of those images, but i think that is indeed a sense that many people have of this, so—called uni party. we'll come on to monty panesar , in on to monty panesar, in a minute, actually. in fact, you know what? let's just go for it. let's talk about it now, because many of you, it was only about a week ago. you perhaps will remember you was watching dewbs& co and we were speaking about this, the cricketer who would then become the latest face of, george galloway's workers party for britain. i've got to say, i saw quite a few interviews. and i don't mean to be unkind, but he didn't really perform very

well in those interviews, and there was lots of talk about this is for gaza. and, you know, some of the placards, it was kind of the workers party for britain, for gaza and all the rest of it anyway. so he's now quit the party. firstly, what do you make to that? >> so this is the feel good story of the day, monty panesar has realised , quite frankly, has realised, quite frankly, what george galloway and the workers party are all about, he was quite uncomfortable when some of mr galloway's quotes were put to monty panesar, i don't think he quite understood the level of scrutiny that comes with standing for a political party. and hats off to him. actually, he's he's looked at the situation. he's probably taken advice from people that he trusts and he's decided to take a step back, it can be alluring when you become involved with the political party you run with, with the ideals that they stand by. and, and i think by stopping and saying, actually , i stopping and saying, actually, i don't believe in all of these

different things. i am a proud brit, and by taking a step back, there will be a bit of because wouldn't you do the basic research before you actually say, put your colours to that mass and say, right, i'm now a representative of this party. >> i'm not saying what people should or should not believe in. but before you say, right, i'm going to stand for this. you should do the basic research beforehand. no, absolutely. >> but some things can get lost in translation. if, mr panesar is somebody who wants to advocate for gaza, and he actually said in the article he wants to advocate for workers, and then he sees the workers party and they've just had a by—election where gaza was a central topic. he might think this is a good avenue for my political career , and then later political career, and then later it comes out that there's been these quotes which are highly embarrassing. you should know that we are conditioned as human beings to agree with with things that we've said already. it takes it takes guts to turn around and say, actually, i made around and say, actually, i made a mistake and that's what he did. and i think it's worthy of praise. >> i think too many people go into politics because they want

to. >> it's like an ego thing. they want their they're the kind of adoration, like, if you're going to represent, you want to put yourself forward and say that yourself forward and say that you want to represent the workers credit. i think that the workers credit. i think that the workers absolutely do need, some support. you should know at least the basics, though. like, for example , what is the minimum for example, what is the minimum wage or the living wage or whatever, like absolute core basics that would affect the workers? >> no . and he didn't know that. >> no. and he didn't know that. >> no. and he didn't know that. >> no. and he didn't know that. >> no. he thought when i mean , i >> no. he thought when i mean, i saw, he was asked that actually on this question on this, channel, he was asked things like, what is the national living wage? and he said about 40 grand. and then they said, no, no, no, we mean like by the houn no, no, no, we mean like by the hour. and he said, 15, which he absolutely isn't. and that's fine. anyone if you can pluck a random person off the street and say, what's the minimum wage? and if they don't know, that's, you know, whatever. but if you're going to stand on a ticket of actually, you know, representing the workers of britain, there are some core bafic britain, there are some core basic facts. there's an interesting tension there, isn't there? >> because if you want career politicians, media polished,

don't really have any authenticity, don't really believe in anything. somebody like natalie elphicke by the looks of it, they probably give you the right answer to that sort of thing. and by the way, i agree with what you're saying here, michelle, but it's an interesting one. if we want more people to be involved in politics, more people to be involved in public service, we're probably going to see also more people stick their foot in it and not have the right sort of media trained message for something like that. i mean, i think for me, the big takeaway with this story is with galloway, by the way, i interviewed him last week. >> you can see that i saw you, i saw you created quite a stir because you was the person that got that kind of quote from him where he was basically saying, i'm not putting words into his mouth, but it was along the lines of he didn't think that gay relationships were, quote, normal. normal. yeah, yeah. so that was on your interview with him whilst also saying things which were very, you know, commendable. >> but that is categorically what he said, and obviously that caused consternation, quite rightly what i find with galloway, which is so fascinating, is he's a very, very intelligent man. clearly

you don't win four times in four different constituencies if you're stupid. he's clearly very clever. he has a command of the engush clever. he has a command of the english language, which is second to none. is he a party builder ? that's what is he? builder? that's what is he? somebody who can lead a party, set an example, build an organisation . then he failed to organisation. then he failed to do that with respect. in the mid 2000 and i suspect we'll see something similar. i don't know, i suspect we'll see something similar with the workers party because there is this huge gap to the left of labour right now on foreign policy. >> but why wouldn't he have breached, why wouldn't he have briefed, monty panesar? then why wasn't there some kind of meat? i mean, i'm not saying he needs to know. absolutely everything for everyone. no, but basics. i'm not asking him to know. i don't know the most, intricate details of political history. i'm not saying that, but the most basic things, if you're going to put someone and you've decided to put them up on the national media, knowing kind of the kind of questions that will be asked to say that you're there to represent the worker without knowing something as bafic without knowing something as basic as what is that minimum wage, that is surely a failure if , let's just be

wage, that is surely a failure if, let's just be kind and say it's a failure of the person briefing them. >> i did not come here to defend george galloway or the workers party, but if i was in charge takes strange turns, i would say monty panesar is a very well known person , and if you can't known person, and if you can't answer the other question, he's still going to benefit the party. so i can understand why they'd want him. what i would say is i agree with you on george galloway's oratory. i think what what monty panesar see is that you can't get 65% of a person. you can't get just the oratory. you have to take the acrimony, the arguments that always come with george galloway, and he's he can't build a party. i don't think he's a builder. i think he's a polemicist. i think he's very good at getting attention. and he will make a big stink, and then he'll go away like political flatulence . political flatulence. >> this, monty panesar, his statement said he is a proud brit who has had the honour to represent the country at the highest level of cricket. >> he wants to do his bit to help others, but he recognises as he's the beginning of his journey and still learning about how politics can help people . he

how politics can help people. he goes on to say he's withdrawing as a candidate. he needs more time to kind of listen and learn and share his views and all the rest of it, and he says he wishes the party, the workers party, well, but he wants to take some time to mature and find my political feet. so i am well prepared to deliver my very best when i run up to the next political wicket , he says. let political wicket, he says. let me know your thoughts on that. i just want to come back to that after the break, actually, because i found it really interesting. if you're somebody who wants to get rid of the tories at the next election and that's each to their own judge, you know, vote however you want. none of my business. but if you want to do that, there's a very slick, organised campaign that will show you how you can tactically vote and all the rest of it. if you're someone that is perhaps on the side of gaza and thatis perhaps on the side of gaza and that is your key issue , and you that is your key issue, and you want to get candidates that do that, there's hugely organised kind of campaign groups there. so i'm pondering, why do you think the right of politics seem to seemingly be so disorganised,

so fragmented ? and have you got so fragmented? and have you got an answer for me for that? because i'd love to know. give me your thoughts and i'll see

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm with useless 7:00 tonight. there is lots that i want to cover with you, not least immigration. there's a 36 point plan that's been released today. i shouldn't laugh because itake today. i shouldn't laugh because i take this issue very, very seriously. i just think it's just absolutely absurd now because we have lost control. and will we ever be able to get it back? is this 36 point plan the answer or not? i'll get into that in a few minutes. alongside the co—founder of novara media and bastani and the political commentator and social worker at yousef, david, welcome back everybody. one of the things that i was asking aaron just before the break was how coordinated it seems to me that if you want the tories out, there's all these different

groups with high profile people backing it. if you're a muslim and you're really passionate about gaza or whatever , there's about gaza or whatever, there's about gaza or whatever, there's a very slick campaign there. but if you're someone that wants to, i don't know, you're to the right of centre, you don't want labour to get in or whatever. there's nothing unless i'm missing something. >> well, there was there was meant to be reform . michelle, we meant to be reform. michelle, we were talking about this non—stop for six months. >> no, i'm talking about like, yes, of course, campaigns . yeah. yes, of course, campaigns. yeah. it's like a tactical, sense because many people i speak to lots of you guys at home every day, and many people will say, we don't know who to vote for. what we know is we don't want labour to get in, but do we go for, the tories or do we go for reform, are we just going to waste votes? what is the best way to do it? and it doesn't seem to be any kind of, tactics involved. there's no tactics, no strategy, no logistics. >> i think all of that stuff. why not? i think i think the right has just imploded in this country for a bunch of reasons. some some, i think inevitable, i think brexit and that fight from

2016 to 2019 really dissolved british conservatism as we know it. i think that was partly the ambition of people like mr farage and they want to remake it in their image. that's going to take a while. you know, you're not going to do that in one two years. that's going to take, you know, the best part of a decade. so so, i think british conservatism is in a very bad place. what i would say is labour have the opportunity now over the next five, ten years to be the sort of party of the centre, centre right. i know we think of them as being in the trade unions pockets, but i think labour and keir starmer view themselves really as the heirs to people like david cameron. and then i think it's for the left, the greens, the workers party, independents, the labour left and the right to recompose themselves because there's a real opportunity here for labour to like i say, govern from the centre ground for a very long time. and i don't say that happily because there's many things i disagree with when it comes to the problem is, is not just with with the right of politics. >> you just said that keir starmer sees himself as the heir to cameron, so he sees himself

as the heir to somebody from a different party. yeah. and the trouble is that they've all been blairites since blair. we haven't actually had a real labour man or a real conservative. >> liz truss person. well, your days, many would say that she was to the right. >> yes. unfortunately, the system closed her down, and we didn't have an opportunity to actually see, conservative economics. i would have settled for a social conservative, but but we said, okay, so you know, a conservative economics. and the system closed her down. the trouble is that we're all centrists at the moment . the centrists at the moment. the main parties are centrists. and i agree with you. i think labour in the centre, we would disagree on this, but i think they're incredibly dangerous. i think that's when they can really change this country. >> what are they're dangerous on, migration . you what, you on, migration. you what, you think immigration will go up under starmer, i think it would be hard for it to go up. i think it would be maintained, starmer has spoken about, safe and legal routes. that's his answer. a5 routes. that's his answer. as opposed to stopping the boats from coming over , provide safe

from coming over, provide safe and legal routes. and we know that traditionally labour have been, a lot more open to the idea of open borders than the conservatives had , and the last conservatives had, and the last time the centrists from labour were in, they changed the country forever, not just with regard to immigration, but also launching wars , change. changing launching wars, change. changing the way this country has is viewed across the world and also the way that we function as a democracy, as the way that our politics actually functions was changed by tony blair, and i don't know when we're going to recover from it. >> and what do you think when we talk about the labour party, one of the, one of the key challenges to the labour labour party now will be the rise of what i would call the organised muslim vote. >> so whether that's you've seen all these people now going into the green party, you've seen lots of people standing as independents on things like gaza. we've just been talking about george galloway's party as well. i think that labour

perhaps didn't see that one coming in terms of sectarian voting. >> i think that's always the risk, particularly for a party like labour that likes to play identity politics. so promoting the idea that you should vote for us because you're from a minority community entrenches people's idea of belonging to that community, and it hastens it hastens the prospect of political parties around religion or around our groupings. i think it's very dangerous . groupings. i think it's very dangerous. it's i think it's something that labour has walked into. >> but it's deeper than that, though, isn't it? because the whole situation that's unfolding and escalating in gaza, that is something that's held, deeply by many people , not just of a many people, not just of a particular religious , leaning, particular religious, leaning, but much broadly than that. people want there to be a ceasefire, and it seems to be for a lot of people that this is one of that. we saw it in the locals. it was one of their

primary driving motivations when selecting who to for. vote >> well, it seems like a not a very smart, reason to base your decision on for a local election, an international issue , but i think for a lot of people, they saw it as a way to, in the moment, make their voices heard. >> so you don't think that'll translate to a general election? >> i don't think so. not to the same extent, maybe there's a possibility of a few seats . if possibility of a few seats. if the demographics of the country change going forward, it could be that sectarian politics is something very, very real in the future. but right now , for this future. but right now, for this next election, i don't think it's going to impact. >> do you think it'll impact the generals? are it's down to the politicians and how they take advantage of it. >> i think if you had a stellar political leader with a well—resourced, well—funded organisation, they could take 1520 seats off labour. but that isn't what basis on what issue foreign policy on a on a minimal economic agenda and foreign policy, populist rhetoric. basically, what the workers parties tried to do. i think you could do that in 15 to 20 seats.

look at somewhere like bethnal green, which is going to be redrawn, but it'll still be that constituency where you have rushanara ali labour, that is tower hamlets first. lutfur rahman, i don't think he's well. i know he's not going to stand as the candidate there. if he wants to, he'd walk it. and so i think actually if you look at 2030, there are huge opportunities for individuals, parties to the left of labour. like i say, you don't need a massive agenda, minimal economic agenda of a socialist, quasi socialist agenda, plus the foreign policy stuff, plus really go big on the rhetoric and the messaging. like i say, 15, 20 seats. >> aaron, can i ask you why do you think george galloway and jeremy corbyn have not joined 7 up. up? >> well, they're very different people. i know that. i know that jeremy corbyn. yeah. well i think they are very different people. i mean, george galloway said this. george galloway said to me that, you know, jeremy corbyn's a liberal. he cares about what you call identity politics. the green agenda. you know, george galloway thinks we should forget, fracking. he thinks we should get coal back. so it really is. it's a much bigger gulf than people think. yes they're very like minded on

foreign policy. absolutely. and i think 20 years ago, actually, they sounded very similar. but again, as george galloway said to me, he's gotten older, he's become more religious with age. there's a there's a big gap there on . social conservatism, there on. social conservatism, there on. social conservatism, the green agenda, identity. >> well, if the far left can't unite, then the chance of there being a left wing party that's going to take seats is minimal right now. >> i think, one of my viewers, simon, says the so—called right of politics has gradually . been of politics has gradually. been shut down, michel, thanks to politically correct and diversity groups, anyone now with a so—called different view is shut down and cancelled. >> do you agree with that, aaron? >> i think cancel culture is a real thing . i think it has to be real thing. i think it has to be warded against left, right and centre. i think it exists across politics, by the way, and this is why i want i would want an enshrined constitutional right to free speech and freedom of association. i think in the era of social media and identity politics, you have to have it. and we have 68 million people in

this country. every single person needs a very small document that explains to them why other people have a right to say what they think, and we don't have that varne i have to agree on that. >> i think freedom of speech is the bedrock of our society, and we are self—censoring as well. i think with the idea that people are people will be offended by our comments. we no longer say things that we used to say and therefore society is becoming more insular and sensitive. >> why? what don't you say that you used to say, well, i'm not talking personally. >> i'm saying in general we assume people will be offended by by things actually that that they're not. i think people are pretty broad shouldered and they're happy to discuss you. >> yeah, i think we're too many people get offended all the time. i think it's pathetic. >> well, that there are those who very much enjoy taking offence, and it's also a way for them to make conversation. >> it's a way it's very lucrative. taking offence in this country is a very lucrative industry. you have like a whole, it's almost like a, a sub economy set up with the people , economy set up with the people, all of these kind of groups that

are anti this and anti this and diverse this and diverse that all set up to i'll come in and train you about how to do this. i'll give you advice about how to do that. i think it's very very odd. one of my viewers has got in touch and said, michel, please, will you stop talking? you're going on about monty and they want me to stop. apparently they want me to stop. apparently they say they absolutely love him. good on him for lifting the bar and then good on him again for having the guts to leave. i'm not commenting on the guy. i don't know the guy. what i'm saying is, i mean, come on, grasp some basics. if you're going to go in and put your hat in the ring, which i applaud too, by the way. good. i think we need more people. do a little bit of homework. i mean, that's not too much to ask, is it? i want to talk to you about migration, though, because, the former immigration minister, robert jenrick, he's among a group of people who today, have announced a 36 point plan for immigration. have you seen this one, everybody? he's calling for a few different things, sir. he wants, the cap to be to the tens

of thousands when it comes to the number that come into this country . he also wants the home country. he also wants the home office to split up. give me your initial thoughts on this . initial thoughts on this. >> this is very, very exciting. it's 36 points. we're at 35 points. i might not be as excited. >> i was about are you actually really excited about this plan? are you. >> this is election season and we are pumping out policy ideas by the day. it seems, what i will say is that for me, this is a red herring we shouldn't be talking about the benefit of migration on the economy. i think we should be talking about the effects of migration on society. i think migration needs to be reduced significantly, last year over 600,000 people came here. net migration, which is completely unsustainable. and it means that we're unable to integrate at the same rate, at the same rate that people are actually migrating here. and when you have migration , which

when you have migration, which is above the rate of integration, you risk ghettoisation. and that's what we're starting to see. our society , vie, is being impacted society, vie, is being impacted by the rate of immigration. and to talk about it purely, it's been like that for ages. absolutely, absolutely. and producing 36 points, which which lays out how we are going to deal with the migration crisis, which i think it's fair to, to call it, actually belies the fact that what we don't need is more bureaucracy. we've got far too many civil servants already. what we need is a willingness by the civil service and our justice system, our central government, every aspect of, of the people who rule our country to actually do something about this, to look at the amount of people who are coming here every yean people who are coming here every year, the ability of our infrastructure to change to meet those needs and, and a decision with regard to the best interests of everybody who lives here. >> well, there you go, gary. he's been in touch and says the

issue is, that you have on the right says there is no real leadership. he says the conservatives have failed us. and richard tice just doesn't seem to be it. he says you need nigel farage to come back and get stuck in, mark avira has beenin get stuck in, mark avira has been in touch saying, can i just say that matthew normally makes my head explode? but tonight is actually making sense. mark, i don't know what programme you're watching, my friend, but there's nobody on this panel, called matthew, look, i will be coming back after the break, though, sir aaron bastani, because i want his thoughts on this new migration plan. 36 points. we'll go through some of them, but do you reckon it'll make a blind bit of difference? tell me. see you in two.

hello, everyone. i'm michelle dewberry with you till 7:00 tonight. i want to talk to you. then about that conversation. migration. we're just having this whole notion that we can

even cap the numbers now to the tens of thousand. that ship, pardon the pun, has sailed , has pardon the pun, has sailed, has it not? these are robert jenrick and kurz, 30 odd point plan as to what we're going to do to fix the issues. >> well, robert jenrick has ambitions of being, i think, leader of the conservative party. >> it's got a new haircut and a new haircut. >> snazzy dress sense. lost weight. it's all there . and now weight. it's all there. and now he's put the icing on the cake by talking about tens of thousands, just as david cameron did, just as margaret thatcher did, just as margaret thatcher did, by the way, in 1979. that's how long the tories have been using this precise line. look, tens of thousands is what he's saying. we've had 1.3 million net migration in the last two years. there's obviously a huge gap between those two places. what i would say is that the uk right now has around net immigration of around half a million. now, of course, not all of those people are brits, but even if you go back to 1997, net immigration was around 200,000. we have a birth rate of 1.49, again significantly lower than even 20 years ago. and what i don't like about this whole

conversation is that people like robert jenrick aren't being honest about the costs of going to tens of thousands , in terms to tens of thousands, in terms of migration really quickly, what it would mean in terms of inflation, what would it mean in terms of collapsing higher education because you'd have no students . and i don't think, students. and i don't think, like i say, he's being honest. there'll be massive, massive costs if he said within a decade we can reach this point, i would say this isn't sloganeering. that's quite plausible, actually . but he's not done that. he's talking as if this can be executed next year, two years time with no downsides. there would be massive downsides. so i don't think he's being honest. i think it's electioneering, i think it's electioneering, i think it's electioneering, i think it's a bit odd, though, beanng think it's a bit odd, though, bearing in mind that you was the immigration minister for a year quite , and actually, things were quite, and actually, things were quite, and actually, things were quite significant out of control dunng quite significant out of control during that watch. so you know, if you'd have managed to really positively grab a hold of these things and. yes, okay, you can argue it might have been going in a the right trajectory, but

notwithstanding that it was off the scale, and if he'd have got a great track record, then i might have taken this a little bit more seriously. >> well, if he exactly if he'd said, look, i think a good number in the short term is 250,000 200,000. but i'd like it to be like this in ten years time. after two parliaments, i'd say, okay, this sounds like somebody with a plan. you can agree or disagree. let you say judge politicians by their actions, not their words. priti patel was the most liberal home secretary on migration this country's ever seen. now, of course, if you heard a speech from her, you would never think that. but she was a home secretary when 1.3 million people net migrated to this country over two years. so i would say judge mrjenrick, as with mr patel on his actions, not his words, one of my viewers, chris, says a 36 point plan. michelle decker even follow a one step plan when it comes to the rwanda plan . so why comes to the rwanda plan. so why would we believe that this is any different ? one of the other any different? one of the other things, that was suggested was perhaps breaking up, the home office and one of my viewers here says that would be an

absolutely great idea. sorry. the civil service, they're talking about the viewer that it would be an absolutely brilliant idea. you need to pull the civil service into line and do the job that we pay them to do, starting with perhaps returning to the office. what do you make to that, suggestion about separating and breaking things 7 up. up? >> i the thing is , the last >> i the thing is, the last thing we need is more bureaucracy. >> there's everything is far too convoluted as it is. if we're going to have a department specific for migration and for making sure that our borders are protected, and it meets it meets the objective that's been set out . absolutely. but i think we out. absolutely. but i think we could be meeting these these requirements now, if there was genuine appetite in the home office and with regard to central central government, as i said before, already . so by all said before, already. so by all means split the home office if it will help. but i think we could actually be taking action now. how. >> now. >> well, he wants to split it because he wants to create a

department of border security and immigration control, fascinating . some people are fascinating. some people are getting in touch and saying, yeah, but michelle, all the while we're in the echr you can have as many plans as you want, but you are going to be restricted by that. you make a very good point indeed. after the break, how far do you think you should be able to go to defend your property from being burgled? give me your thoughts and i'll see you in two.

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry , hi there. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm with you till 7:00. alongside the co—founder of novara media and bastani. and the political commentator and social worker. yourself david. welcome back everyone. someone on twitter just got welcome back everyone. someone on twitterjust got in touch on twitter just got in touch with me and said, michel, you've completely misrepresented what george galloway said to aaron bastani, did i? aaron bastani because if i did, it wasn't intentional. >> by the way, look, not to the

best of my understanding in this interview, which people can watch on the novara media youtube channel, he says that, children in school shouldn't be told that lgbt relationships are normal , and told that lgbt relationships are normal, and then i press him on that. well, is that because of what reason. do you mean they're not typical ? he says no, gay not typical? he says no, gay relationships aren't normal. i love them , i can be affectionate love them, i can be affectionate to them. i have staff who are lgbt. he won the stonewall award. i should, i should say, in the early 19905. >> i saw him tweet that. >> i saw him tweet that. >> but he says they're not normal. and so i say, do you mean not typical? because of course they're not typical. they're in a minority, and look, there's ambiguity there. but those are his words. and that's how it's been reported by novara media and elsewhere. well there you go. i don't want you to get, you go. i don't want you to get, you know, in trouble corrected. >> if i got that wrong. a story that caught my eye this week was a story about a farmer who's been accused of shooting dead, someone that was apparently a suspected burglar. and it made me wonder how far i can't get into the specifics of this case, because it's an ongoing legal

situation. so i'll broaden it out and ask the principal more broadly, how far do you think you should be able to go to defend and protect your own property, your family within it? >> so there's an idea of reasonable force . there's an reasonable force. there's an idea of defending, defending yourself in line with the ability of the person who's who's coming into your house, that's kind of ambiguous in the moment. how are you supposed to know, but i would say there's the idea also that an englishman's home is his castle, and one's right to protect their property is the is the basis of common law in this country. so we should all be able to go to bed at night confident that if we do defend ourselves , we're we do defend ourselves, we're not going to be hauled before the courts , but i don't i think the courts, but i don't i think particularly for farmers , particularly for farmers, because they're a small section of society that can own guns . we of society that can own guns. we need some clarity around the law, because i remember tony martin 20 years ago shot

somebody and who was breaking into his house and ended up going to jail. there was a huge furore over it, and eventually he was released. and in all those years, we're still having these conversations about what someone can do to defend their own property, aaron might not agree with much of that, what i would say is if somebody is defending themselves, clearly they should use all reasonable force to defend themselves in this particular instance, i think shooting two young people who are running away from the scene of the crime doesn't really constitute self—defence, but i'm sure that the judge in terms of sentencing, if it goes that far, would , would think that far, would, would think about that and dwell on that in terms of what kind of sentence this person would be looking at. maybe they've been it seems they've been the victim of repeated crimes. they won't necessarily be thinking in a particularly charitable way to those who've inflicted those crimes on them. in other instances of people being assaulted in their home or when they've taken somebody's life defending themselves. i don't think that should be treated as manslaughter or murder. i think they shouldn't even spend one

iota of one second in a prison cell . but we also have to cell. but we also have to remember that killing someone is worse than having things stolen from you. i hope that the judge in this particular case uses this. >> yeah, but i just want to say, when you are, if you get your house broken into so you're fast asleep in bed, you might have your children or your loved ones or family members in your house that complete violation of your privacy of your personal space, just that disgraceful, despicable nature of having all of your stuff rifled through. it goes beyond and deeper than just having stuff stolen this on this. >> i think that's a slightly separate point. so this is a farm. >> i'm not talking about that. i've moved away from that. yeah. >> no, i agree with you there. i agree with you that broadly i agree with you that broadly i agree with you that broadly i agree with you that this this seems to be, people who are stealing things in a quasi professional manner repeatedly from a working farm. and the farmer had had enough. but you're right. i think somebody's

home when their children are there. i can understand why people would bang into someone's home is one of the lowest of the low things that you can do. >> and i think often when people have that happen to them, they often can't even stay in their own home because the memories, the thought that some disgusting person has been rifling rummaging through your your cupboards, your drawers, they've been touching all of your things. a lot of people, they don't feel safe every time there's a rustle at the door or a bang, they can't settle down again. so then they have to leave their own home because of that. >> absolutely. i'm so i'm a social worker. i've worked with people whose homes have been burgled. i have seen people who have needed to leave their home. they've suffered nervous breakdowns having said that, i don't think that robbing someone's house, destroying their life is warrant the death penalty, as it were. i don't think the person deserves to die , but people would be less likely to take extreme action if theyif

likely to take extreme action if they if they thought there was a chance that if they called the police, this person might get arrested . you know, if they did arrested. you know, if they did get arrested, they might serve some time in jail. get arrested, they might serve some time in jail . we have a some time in jail. we have a double pincer of weak laws that don't keep people in jail. and on the other side is the other claw of the pincer is the absolute defunding and letting down of our rural police forces . down of our rural police forces. and it just so happens it's a farmer. you can barely see a police patrol or something like that in rural areas, and it has had an impact and people feel that they need to protect themselves. >> well, of course, and i think that we're going to see more and more of that actually, because people, don't feel that they can rely on. right. if i'm going to ring 999, this situation will be resolved in a timely manner , the resolved in a timely manner, the majority of burglaries didn't actually reach a conviction or anything like that last year , anything like that last year, and i don't actually, i don't think it's actually taken perhaps as seriously as it ought

to be, peter says, i've got a sign on my front window that says, if you're thinking of breaking into my home first, make peace with your maker because you'll shortly be meeting him. called blimey, peter , i think perhaps people peter, i think perhaps people would think twice about entering your home, how far you're allowed to go to protect our property should be all the way. no ifs or buts , says john, but no ifs or buts, says john, but other people writing in and saying . but actually, hang on saying. but actually, hang on a second, because if that's the way, then anyone could just bnng way, then anyone could just bring anyone into their house and do whatever they wanted to do under the guise of them being potentially a burglar. i'll leave you to ponder it overnight, aaron, thank you very much for your time yourself. thank you for yours too. and you at home. i always appreciate your company, but don't go anywhere because nigel farage is up next. and i'll see you tomorrow night. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar , sponsors of weather on . solar, sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello. good evening. it's been another dry and fine day for many of us, and there'll be

more in the way of sunshine to come tomorrow, and it should be a warmer day for most of us. however cloudier skies are starting to approach the northwest as this weather front moves in. won't make too much progress overnight . further progress overnight. further elsewhere across the country as high pressure is building in so it should be a fairly clear and dry night for the bulk of england and wales. cloudier skies will affect parts of northern england, northern ireland and in particular much of scotland, where the rain will turn quite persistent across the northwest overnight. so quite a damp night to come. probably a damp night to come. probably a damp start to the day, but elsewhere it should be a bright and mild start to the day quite widely. temperatures will be in double digits by thursday morning. any mist a mist and fog that has formed overnight should clear quite readily. it's most likely across coastal areas across england and wales , and across england and wales, and that will give way to another day of long lived sunny spells. and it's going to feel warmer in that sunshine than today . and that sunshine than today. and the sunshine should spread up and further north into northwestern areas of scotland as that weather front pushes north. highs of 2223, possibly 24 degrees across central areas of england on thursday. again,

there's a risk of mist and fog to start the day on friday. the sunshine could be a bit hazy first thing, but it should brighten up quite quickly through the day and i think most areas will see a day of long lived sunny spells. and once again, it's going to be feeling fairly warm, long lived sunshine to come on saturday. a risk of showers on sunday, but temperatures are climbing towards 25 or 26 degrees. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> good evening. yes. another defection. another conservative mp joins the labour party. but natalie lthink is one of the very last people you would have thought to do it. the centre for policy studies produces a report

today on migration saying economically, it's bad for us. and guess what? it even has an impact on housing. well, at least they finally managed to catch up with 1 or 2 of these things. and last night, a vote at the garrick club by 60% to 40 votes to admit women members. is this a victory for diversity, or is it just very weak men flying the flag, the white flag of surrender to the guardian newspaper will debate that to towards the end of the show. but before all of that, let's get the . news. the. news. >> nigel, thank you very much and good evening to you. it's just coming up to 701. and the top story from the newsroom tonight. conservative mp natalie elphicke has switched to labour, accusing rishi sunak of leading accusing rishi sunak of leading a tired and chaotic government . a tired and chaotic government. the mp for dover has revealed the reason she defected were housing and issues with uk borders. downing street, though,

has brushed off questions about